House Rules

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Re: House Rules

Post  Alfax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:35 am

Wade8813 wrote:Our point is, if you want to be the best spellcaster, you can take straight Wizard. If you want to be the best sneaky dude, you can be straight Rogue. If you want to be the best archer, there is no class for you. You can be a Ranger, and get other things, but so what? That's like arguing that a party tank should be a Bard, since they (technically) get other things too. Nobody cares.
So what you want is a class for each different kind of fighter kind you can be? So a class for Archer, a class for Lancer, a class for Swordsman, a class for Axer, and so on. That seems ridiculous. I like that they have the class that has different things in it while having the ability to be an archer. They could have designed an archer class but instead they didn't have a lot of bow stuff and instead you get all sorts of other cool stuff. But there's still the option in there to optimize yourself by combining your bow use with bonuses from other classes.

And it's not the same as the Bard = tank argument, because they get nothing that helps them tank. Rangers can actually be archers. They have class features that let them be archers.
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Re: House Rules

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:42 am

So what you want is a class for each different kind of fighter kind you can be?

I'm arguing for the opposite. I think one class should be handle the various warrior types within itself through choosing a combination of feats. Fighter should be able to be a mounted warrior or a polearm specialist, or an archer, etc. As is, it doesn't work that way. I believe there is a more elegant solution available than Axer, Archer, Rager, Metal Man, Two Weaponer, and so on.

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Re: House Rules

Post  Wade8813 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:22 am

Yeah, the Bard was a bad analogy (just like they're bad at everything else).
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Re: House Rules

Post  Alfax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:26 am

Korohit wrote:I'm arguing for the opposite. I think one class should be handle the various warrior types within itself through choosing a combination of feats. Fighter should be able to be a mounted warrior or a polearm specialist, or an archer, etc. As is, it doesn't work that way. I believe there is a more elegant solution available than Axer, Archer, Rager, Metal Man, Two Weaponer, and so on.
So, if I'm hearing this right is that you don't want a different class. What you want is a better selection of feats for Fighter that could make someone an archer or other kind of fighter-type easier/faster. Is that right?
Wade8813 wrote:Yeah, the Bard was a bad analogy (just like they're bad at everything else).
Not true! They're the best when it comes to bardic music and bardic knowledge.
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Re: House Rules

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:02 pm

Exactly. It's two intertwined issues, separated they are:
1] The simplest upgrade/fighter fix is to give him better feats and maybe slightly more [Due to the dead level problem.]
2] In a New Edition World I think people should be only have to look to one class in the Sban PHB when making a basic kind of character. Such that Classes represent an overarching collection of abilities around a theme.

3rd PHB has a few of these classes
Cleric
Fighter
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

Some In betweens, that have some implied flavor:
Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Monk

Then a few that basically force flavor on you if you want their class powers
Paladin
Ranger


Having classes define character flavor is kind of awkward because then there are situations like: "You can't join the order of the Paladins, you don't have any paladin levels!"

Classes are supposed to just be advancement paths, a kind of training from which you gain new powers. They shouldn't be defining your worldly position.

It's hard to say how to separate the implied flavor level of the Axer vs that of the Fighter. Axers just Axe. Fighters have some general weapon prof., then is a class which gives you access to advancement along a mix and matched course of weapon prof. I think in part then where I'm going from is that there should be the least number of classes as possible. Wizards are a different class than Fighter,not because their flavor is so different, but because their advancement mechanics are so fundamentally different that they need a new class.

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Re: House Rules

Post  Jeremiah1310 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:19 pm

A quick thing I want to add about the potentially new skill system - I was thinking that there could also be a minor bonus to class skills and/or minor penalties to those skills to characters that aren't. This would help the lower rogues who are always trained versus the Wizard who decides to take the skill, but still wants to be decent at it.
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Re: House Rules

Post  Alfax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:27 pm

Interesting, a couple of things:

Korohit wrote:2] In a New Edition World I think people should be only have to look to one class in the Sban PHB when making a basic kind of character. Such that Classes represent an overarching collection of abilities around a theme.
From what I was hearing earlier it's not that you want one class to be able to make a basic character, since I pointed out that you could do this (archer = ranger or fighter). But what you really want is one class that lets you be the best at being that kind character. Such that there is no thought to it and no gain from deeper understanding of what you have access to, just fighter takes archer feat = bestest archer. I'm not saying you should have to look through different books when making your char (in fact, the Cook book says it's not to be combined with core books), but if you notice that the same book has multiclass combos then you'd be set.

Korohit wrote:Classes are supposed to just be advancement paths, a kind of training from which you gain new powers. They shouldn't be defining your worldly position.
Could not agree with this harder.

Jeremiah1310 wrote:A quick thing I want to add about the potentially new skill system - I was thinking that there could also be a minor bonus to class skills and/or minor penalties to those skills to characters that aren't. This would help the lower rogues who are always trained versus the Wizard who decides to take the skill, but still wants to be decent at it.
I don't much care for this idea. It would make you have to memorize your class skills so you know if you get penalized when trying to make an untrained skill check. And in the Saga system giving a penalty to skills you don't spec in is essentially the same as just giving a bigger bonus to the ones you do spec in.
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Re: House Rules

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Yeah I basically am saying that I'd like it to take less research and technical/special knowledge to make characters [With specific powers, that is]. Its a pretty involved process at the moment, and while I enjoy digging through tomes on a quest for optimization, I believe the bar to entry should be lower.

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Re: House Rules

Post  Wade8813 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:40 pm


I don't much care for this idea. It would make you have to memorize your class skills so you know if you get penalized when trying to make an untrained skill check. And in the Saga system giving a penalty to skills you don't spec in is essentially the same as just giving a bigger bonus to the ones you do spec in.
You wouldn't have to memorize anything. It could just be something as simple as a +3 on some skills. Sure, you'd have to check your sheet to see what your mod is, but we do that now anyway. Basically, your skills would fall into Good, Medium, and Bad; Good being the class skills you spec in, Medium being the non-class skills you spec in, and Bad being everything else.

In fact, the best way to do this might be to have each char choose X skills that they get a bonus to, which would obviously be ones that they're actually focusing on. Maybe something like all chars get two skills they spec in, if you have 14 Int you get to choose a 3rd skill, if you have 18 Int a 4th; if you're a skill-ish class (Monk, Bard) you get one more, if you're a Rogue or Akashik, you get another on top of that. Then you can have some skills that you can specialize in, but all of your base skills have a certain number, and all of your good skills have a certain number.
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Re: House Rules

Post  Alfax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:52 pm

Jeremiah1310 wrote:minor penalties to those skills to characters that aren't.
That's what I was referring to when I mentioned memorizing your class skills. Because if you get a penalty on all the other ones you'd have to know which ones you have.

Wade8813 wrote:In fact, the best way to do this might be to have each char choose X skills that they get a bonus to, which would obviously be ones that they're actually focusing on. Maybe something like all chars get two skills they spec in, if you have 14 Int you get to choose a 3rd skill, if you have 18 Int a 4th; if you're a skill-ish class (Monk, Bard) you get one more, if you're a Rogue or Akashik, you get another on top of that. Then you can have some skills that you can specialize in, but all of your base skills have a certain number, and all of your good skills have a certain number.
Now here's an idea I can get behind. You could get rid of the class skills idea to begin with and just choose the skills you want. I'd like the bonus from Int to be a little better, like one more skill per mod, and the starting number could be different, but those things are up for discussion. I also like how more skill related classes get bonuses in the Joel system.
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Re: House Rules

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:23 pm

Good, medium, and bad skills seems like a workable idea. Maybe in tiers like: Specialized, Trained, Untrained. Of course the more skillful classes getting more base amount of Spec'd and Trained skills.

Then allow certain skill uses for trained+ people. Like in Saga DC 11+ knowledge checks can only be done by people with trained knowledge. I can't recall the others nor do I have access to the pdf atm, but I think we may each want to take a look through the Saga book again and maybe also find some other juicy bits to take. Wink

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Re: House Rules

Post  Joaneh on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:11 am

Good, medium, and bad skills seems like a workable idea. Maybe in tiers like: Specialized, Trained, Untrained. Of course the more skillful classes getting more base amount of Spec'd and Trained skills.

Now that is an idea I can get behind myself.

However, as Alfax was mentioning, a bonus specialized skill per int mod would be a bit better. Some characters are skill monkeys for a reason, =P. -pokes Bryn-.

Question on it though. Would we still have synergy bonuses? If so how would those work out?

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Re: House Rules

Post  Wade8813 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:17 am

Synergy bonuses make sense, and are enjoyable, but are unnecessary. I would guess if you're specialized in 2 synergistic skills, you get some additional small bonus.
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Re: House Rules

Post  Alfax on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:36 pm

So untrained, trained, and spec'd sound good. But what defines them? Untrained, I assume would be a skill you have no 'ranks' in. Trained would take something like one investment and give a minimal bonus. Spec'd would have two investments or something and give a better bonus.

Or would trained be like class skills that you have an automatic bonus in and spec'd have one investment. How would that work with multiclassing?

I like the first set-up better because it really lets skill monkeys show off but also makes for no multiclassing headaches. I'd have synergy bonuses apply if you have ranks in two synergistic skill as either trained or spec'd with being spec'd in both giving a better synergy bonus. Might be too complicated, but probably no more so than the current system.
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Re: House Rules

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:53 am

I've definitely feeling something along these lines skill wise. I like the heroic feel of saga skills, but it does feel like it should have slightly more distinction for very skilled people perhaps. It will take some experimentation to actually figure out what works the best I'm sure.

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