Death and Dying

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Death and Dying

Post  Joaneh on Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:44 am

Mmkay.

Seeing as in the steampunk and points of light thread we've managed to get off topic, heading towards death and dying as a topic. Thus meet the death and dying thread area or doom.


/end lame post/

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:12 am

To recap:
Losing a level is a sucky way to get back to life.
  • Negative level instead
  • Minus to skills instead

Not dying in lil' battles, but in cinematic type battles/scenes
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:31 pm

My vote is for a system where characters can't suffer permanent death from the combat mini-game, but there should definitely be some penalty strong enough to deter people from completely reckless action [Some recklessness is fun Very Happy... choke that Wyvern!].

Also the current stabilization rules suck. Randomly bleeding to death over a minute is kinda whack.

Raise type powers are also central to the death and dying discussion. Should they exist? What should they do? How much should people be able to die?

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Joaneh on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:22 am

korohit wrote:My vote is for a system where characters can't suffer permanent death from the combat mini-game, but there should definitely be some penalty strong enough to deter people from completely reckless action [Some recklessness is fun Very Happy... choke that Wyvern!].

I agree with that idea assuming that the combat mini-game is reminiscent of the final fantasy combat system, which is also used for many other rpgs.

As for what type of penalty to have, that's the hard part. The idea of negative levels is good, but that seems somewhat light for a punishment for dying. Perhaps instead of one negative level you gain a stacked amount depending on your level.

Say levels 1-3 gain 1 neg lvl. 4-6 gain 2. 7-9 gain 3. Etc., etc.

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:29 am

3 Neg levels on a level 7 char is rough - possibly worse than actually losing a level
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:49 am

Joaneh wrote:As for what type of penalty to have, that's the hard part. The idea of negative levels is good, but that seems somewhat light for a punishment for dying. Perhaps instead of one negative level you gain a stacked amount depending on your level.
That sounds like it'd work better than just one punishment that's the same at all levels. This way the punishment is still a punishment at all levels, instead of getting less and less impactful as the same thing for all levels would. Though I do agree with Joel that 3 neg lvs at 7 is really rough. Though I still think actually losing a level is worse than that.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:54 am

If you're level 7, and you have a choice between losing one level (and then gaining two levels when you get 7000 exp - I should have mentioned that), or gaining 3 neg levels, I think losing a level is better.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:00 am

How does 7000 experience get you from level 6 to 8? It can't, it's literally impossible, so you need to explain that. I'd rather have the 3 neg levels and the actually gain a level from 7000 exp or less and lose all the neg levels.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  KevinBlaze on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:00 am

A penalty scaling upwards that way doesn't work right because on the RNG [Random Number Generator] a -2 is always a bigger penalty than a -1, regardless of level. Losing one of your highest lv spell slots is very meaningful at upper levels still, compared to lower, because those are the ones you need to fight monsters as tall as you are. Suggesting the death penalty become harsher on higher levels seems unneeded and wacky.

Also while a penalty is needed, it needs to be simple enough so that you can get back to playing[A negative level is at least simple to apply], large enough to not be wildly reckless[-1 Max HP until next level up is too small], and small enough that you don't want to slit your wrists [level loss is too big].

Losing a level isn't on the table, its broken on the first principles of group gaming, that people shouldn't be put behind in a way such that they categorically can not catch up.

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:05 am

Temporarily losing a level (as opposed to temporarily gaining a negative level) is what I was suggesting (most recently). The reason you'd go from 6 to 8 at 7000 exp is because technically, that's how much exp you'd need to get to level 8 - and for leveling purposes, you count as level 7.

The thing is, 2 neg levels is harsh on spellcasters, but a level 16 fighter might not care as much.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Joaneh on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:12 am

The scale would have to be worked out some, but the point was to keep it so that despite gaining levels there is still a punishment. The one I provided was a relatively quick jot down of a way it could be done. The thing is finding a balance for it, so yes the 3 negative levels at lvl 7 is probably a bit much. It's at least something to work off of.

Losing an actual level is permanent. I was running off that notion. Not the notion of if I lose a level and then gain another one I gain the level I lost back and the new level.

Temporary losing a level is an idea to also go with. It basically stinks, but if you regain it when you gain your next level, then hmm.

As I said it's merely an idea to get things generating.


korohit wrote:Also while a penalty is needed, it needs to be simple enough so that you can get back to playing[A negative level is at least simple to apply], large enough to not be wildly reckless[-1 Max HP until next level up is too small], and small enough that you don't want to slit your wrists [level loss is too big].

Ah yes, that's the trick. Finding something that works for all of that.

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:19 am

I don't remember anything about the level loss being temporary. And from the phb the level loss is permanent. There's no getting it back by gaining a level. If you wanted it to be temporary then that would be different. But I still think it would be too much. And it's not like gaining a level is quick or easy.

I gotta agree with the Joelman about neg lvs being harder on spellcasters than fighter-ish fellas. A minus 2 from your already autohit isn't anything like losing several spells.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:24 am

The level loss wasn't temporary - my latest suggestion would make it that way. You just died, for crying out loud. It should hurt.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:29 am

Right. Hurt, not Maim. We want you to still be the same basic guy and I think losing a level (even temporarily) is too much. But that's what I think. I'm still in favor of the scaling punishment of neg lvs.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  KevinBlaze on Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:01 am

Def going to try out some form of the things we've been discussing here in the near future. Especially no death from regular combat mini-game action, a dagger in the eye still being a dagger in the eye though. Also lighter sentencing from death and recovery from major injury.

Again some experimentation is in order, details to be determined. Shadow team will likely get to play guinea pig to these new potential house rules that don't overhaul the existence of the universe.

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:39 am

Todd always wanted to be a guinea pig when he grew up... Rolling Eyes
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  KevinBlaze on Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:10 pm

Another approach to death and dying is that raising works, but only on people with unfulfilled destinies, or that are favored by the gods to come back and keep on living. Which presumably is a pretty limited pool of people.

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:15 am

That can be a mixed bag - it encourages people to find cool missions, undertake important tasks, and get on a deities good side. On the other hand, someone's favorite character might not make the cut, and that'd be frustrating to them.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:00 pm

Encourage people to find cool missions and/or undertake important tasks, eh? That sounds like some sort of backstory to a character that you are playing the role of. Craziness, I know. Also, finding cool missions and undertaking important tasks is kinda what you do in an RPG, otherwise it'd be boring. And if you have a favorite character that has no backstory or mission or task, then I ask you what makes them so special? Is it their big stats? Their attack roll? Their combat combos? Because the next guy you make could do those things and then Joe Nobackstory could be reborn.

Oh, and getting on a deity's good side is always a good idea. Cool
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:10 pm

Encourage people to find cool missions and/or undertake important tasks, eh? That sounds like some sort of backstory to a character that you are playing the role of. Craziness, I know. Also, finding cool missions and undertaking important tasks is kinda what you do in an RPG, otherwise it'd be boring. And if you have a favorite character that has no backstory or mission or task, then I ask you what makes them so special? Is it their big stats? Their attack roll? Their combat combos? Because the next guy you make could do those things and then Joe Nobackstory could be reborn.

Oh, and getting on a deity's good side is always a good idea.
My point is that all characters are doing missions/tasks, but not all characters are favored by gods. And are your missions/tasks ones that YOU want to do? Or is it suddenly almost a prereq that everyone does whatever you think some god wants you to do? Making a char that does what he wants, instead of what he feels some god wants, has negative repercussions.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that every single character we play has an in-depth backstory, and tries to go on missions for a god all the time. Does every single character get brought back from the dead then? Or do the gods favor some more than others? If your character is favored, and mine isn't, even though I'm doing everything I can to be favored, I might get frustrated.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Alfax on Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:41 pm

Wade8813 wrote:My point is that all characters are doing missions/tasks, but not all characters are favored by gods. And are your missions/tasks ones that YOU want to do? Or is it suddenly almost a prereq that everyone does whatever you think some god wants you to do? Making a char that does what he wants, instead of what he feels some god wants, has negative repercussions.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that every single character we play has an in-depth backstory, and tries to go on missions for a god all the time. Does every single character get brought back from the dead then? Or do the gods favor some more than others? If your character is favored, and mine isn't, even though I'm doing everything I can to be favored, I might get frustrated.
I think you misunderstand My post, because it actually had very little to do with gods at all. In fact, the only time I mention them is the last separate line that was meant as a joke. My point was that characters should have reasons for doing the missions/tasks that they are doing. Not just because they are part of a team, but why are they on that team, why are they doing these things? Or they could have a different mission/task that they are working toward that they are preparing for by being a part of this group. What I would like is a character to have a backstory that makes them want to go out and adventure. Because if they had a comfortable life and no particular mission/task, then why would they be adventurers? Being and adventurer is one of the most deadly things you could do.

I don't know what the criteria for being brought back or not is, but I imagine it's fairly vague. I also bet that if you had a backstory that involved a mission/task/quest of global/personal importance that seemed like it had some thought put into it, then you'd prolly get to come back.
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:26 am

Oh, ok. It's one thing to say "all well thought-out characters come back". It's another to say "you can come back, but only if a god likes you today."
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  KevinBlaze on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:08 pm

In a "some special people can be raised" world at the very least that will include the PCs, or rather the PCs will be drawn from that group of people. The purpose behind such a rule would be to allow the PCs access to raising, at least for their adventuring career, but not everyone in the world all the time. There are mechanical questions to ponder though:

1. Who else or what category of people will be able to be raised [Will there be a typology or methodology to it, or will it be mostly ad hoc with some guidelines?]

2. How does one go about killing or offing raisable people, or should this be allowed? Will some method other than life imprisonment in a dark box work, for example?

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Re: Death and Dying

Post  FarceQactuar on Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:10 am

Korohit wrote:2. How does one go about killing or offing raisable people, or should this be allowed? Will some method other than life imprisonment in a dark box work, for example?

Perhaps some part of the raise-able person would need to be saved, akin to Rimmers holo-projector from Red Dwarf. Making so that as long as whatever malign force wants them dead doesn't have the ability to get to said 'core' part and/or just destroy it outright in less than a round, anything less than a total party kill would be survivable in some sense

Flavourfull thoughts:
The PC's are all dead heroes of the past that take corporeal form with the help of some item/weapon/equipment that was of great import to them as the lived, when the energy that's manifesting them is disrupted (death) the item they use is still there, and can be taken back to a rechargamafier or just recharges on its own after a while as long as it's not destroyed.

The PC's are lifelike robits made by an orginazation that has access to many matterials for robit bodies, but only has a limited supply of robit brain chips (perhaps the technology to make robit brain chips was lost). So when a robits body get ass blowd up, the brainship can usualy be salvaged and put in a new robit body.

The PC's happened upon a/some strange magical device(es) changed them into more resilient super-humanish peoples, letting them recover from death after a some amount of time in a death-like coma as long as most of their body is intact and thrusting them into an adventurous life due to their newfound 'not-a-stupid-commoner' status.

yar!
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Re: Death and Dying

Post  Wade8813 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 am

I like your flavorful ideas, although it seems that if you could just make new robot bodies, they'd all have teh nuts physical stats.
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